"Spanish Kiss" number from Onstage Theatre production
“Esperanza!” Means Hope
“There’s no other choice if you want
to live a passionate life.”
An interview with Gretchen Givens and Linda Gregg
photos and questions by Jamie Jobb
Martinez California recently hosted the world premiere of a new musical -- “Esperanza!” -- at the Campbell Theater. The “pirate romance,” which closed the current Onstage Theatre season, played to sold-out audiences through most of its three-week run. Playwrights Gretchen Givens and Linda Gregg discuss their collaborative process and future plans.
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Q: Describe the moment you met.
GREGG: We met in May, 1972 in front of Dirty Jack’s Theater in Jackson, Wyoming. Dirty Jack’s was the creation of Gretchen’s brother, Jon Stainbrook. Earlier that first season, Jon traveled to New York and hired me to act in the first stage adaptation of “The Ballad of Cat Ballou,” for which Gretchen had already written the music and lyrics.
GIVENS: I was writing music and lyrics for all the original plays at Dirty Jack’s. Linda was the woman my brother hired to play opposite himself: her Cheyenne Rose to his Kid Sheleen. I could tell instantly that Linda had star quality in spades. She’s wildly fun, creative, upbeat and adventurous. We hit it off right away and she became not only a Dirty Jack’s actor, but a part of my personal family. I’ll forever be grateful that Jon brought Linda into my life.
Q: What happened to you last week when “Esperanza!” finally had an opening night at the Martinez Campbell Theater?
GIVENS: Linda and I have been working together forever. Over the years, we fanaticized about what it would be like if one of our plays were ever produced. What feelings would we have on that exciting Opening Night? We imagined we’d pamper ourselves, get our hair and nails done, splurge on perfect outfits, drink champagne as we strolled into the theater on a red carpet strewn with rose petals. As it turned out, we hurriedly handed out flyers, delivered wine and flowers, and set up the lobby in the late afternoon. We dressed quickly and grabbed food to eat at a local drive-through. We nervously watched the clock as people trickled into the theater. We could not comprehend that people we didn't know would come to see our show! It was thrilling to feel the anticipation in the audience. Minutes before opening, we took our seats in the dark, clutching each other's hands in disbelief. We sold out the show! For one breathless moment, time stood still. Tears filled our eyes as we realized that this was really happening! After 11 years of backbreaking work, our “Esperanza!” had stepped out to meet the world.
GREGG: Since “Esperanza!” has quite a few tricky set and costume changes, at Final Dress, I was caught up in the sheer mechanics of making the show work. I saw many years of playmaking in both (directors) Mark Hinds and Helen Means, as I watched these polished professionals sort out what had to be done before opening. And my thoughts were with the tech crew, Randall Knott and John Lytle. Finally, as I scanned the faces of the actors – all searching for their own particular “method” of keeping calm – I was quite taken with how well they handled this entire process, even those who had little prior acting experience. I think I kept my calm by focusing on what everyone else might be thinking or feeling. By Opening Night, I was probably the closest I will ever come to a state of grace. When the curtain finally went up and I heard the first strains of Gretchen’s glorious opening music, I had given myself over to the muses who had inspired us to make this long journey in the first place. Only time and the critics in attendance at opening would tell how far we had succeeded.
Q: What sparked you to embark on writing an original musical, knowing how daunting it could be?
GREGG: The challenge of coming up with something completely our own.
GIVENS: To tell the truth, if we’d known how hard it was going to be back then, I don’t know if we’d have taken it on. It’s taken years of discipline, courage and fortitude to keep going. After Linda and I collaborated at Dirty Jack’s, we realized how much we enjoyed working with one another. It was a mutual creative kick in the pants. We inspired each other to dig deep and imagine “What if?” Because we’re both actors and musicians, we’re drawn to musical theater. After exploring many ideas, we began working on our first musical, “Leaving Limbo”. We had no idea what a monumental journey lay ahead of us.
Q: Describe how Onstage Theatre got involved with this production of “Esperanza!”, particularly artistic director Helen Means’ interest.
GREGG: Helen attended a staged reading of our play “Canyon Road” at the Campbell in 2014. We mentioned “Esperanza!” and Helen expressed interest.
GIVENS: We also owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Mark Hinds. My friend, Jené Bombardier, works for Mark at his insurance office. Jené is an amazing singer who has recorded many songs for us, told me that Mark was the manager of the Martinez Campbell Theater. She suggested that I give him a copy of the script. Mark then presented the idea to Helen. I’ll never forget having lunch with Jené one day. Right in the middle of lunch, I got a call from Mark saying Helen wanted “Esperanza!” to be their final show of the season. I was so excited that I ran out without paying the check -- an error later corrected, by the way! Linda and I are so grateful to Mark and Helen for this fantastic opportunity to present our play and see our dream realized!
Onstage Theatre Artistic Director Helen Means saw merit in original musical
Q: How many times has the show been workshopped? Have there been other casts?
GREGG: The show has never been workshopped.
GIVENS: This is the first time “Esperanza!” has been on stage. Any “workshopping” process was done simultaneously during the actual rehearsals. It made everyone’s job a lot more difficult and kept both of us busy with rewrites every night. We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Helen and Mark, our directors. They’re both gifted at bringing out the best in everyone and we’re blessed to have such spirited, kind-hearted captains at the helm of our maiden voyage. It’s also been a joy working with this cast. They’re fun and everyone really enjoys each other's company. We’re both grateful for their enthusiasm and total commitment. It’s been wonderful to see first-time actors grow to embody their characters so well. And the more seasoned players continue to delight us with their expertise. The ensemble numbers have been a real highlight.
Q: Of course, any production needs a capable crew to make the magic happen on stage.
GIVENS/GREGG: We want to give special thanks to Jené, our masterful music director who made our songs soar, and to Alex Dante Tucker for the exciting swashbuckling swordplay he taught everyone. Martinez resident and dancer Anne Baker was not only our capable choreographer, but she’s also one of our mesmerizing Muses, along with Elizabeth Kahrer. Randall Nott's lighting and exciting visual projections created a magical backdrop and atmosphere. Diane McRice, our skillful set designer, was successfully able to integrate 17th Century pirate ship scenes with ones set in modern Portland. Lisa Danz, our costumer, brought much color and charm to the characters and shaped the look of the show. John Lytle, our sound engineer, kept everything in check so everyone could hear music and words we labored over. Stage manager Sarah Piane and her quick crew were well up for the many scene changes in our very complex show.
Q: You both are seasoned stage actors, what limited your own acting careers?
GREGG: The desire to eat regularly. That’s the easy, glib answer! During the 1970s and 1980s, I was earning money from acting jobs, but usually for only six to eight months of the year. I had to fill in with “day jobs.” This pulled me out of acting queues for long periods of time.
GIVENS: I began acting as a kid in Wyoming. My sisters and I would come home from the Saturday horse opera matinees and act out all the scenes. We’d ride our stick horses around the backyard yelling, “I’ll meet you at the pass, Lone Ranger.” We’d also make up our own plays and stories. We were particularly proud to be cast as extras in the movie “Shane” which was filmed in Grand Teton National Park. I went on from there to act in many plays at the Pink Garter Theater in Jackson, and later in the productions at Mills College in Oakland. After college, I married my sweetheart and became a Mom. For many years, raising two kids took all of my time and attention. However, the love of theater still burned within me. I found ways to incorporate it into my life -- teaching drama as an elementary school teacher; writing original musicals and songs for a youth choir; rocking in a band with my husband. After all those years, I still yearn to get back on stage.
Q: How did your on-stage experience inform your writing “Esperanza!”?
GREGG: It taught me that perseverance was going to play a major role in any successful writing venture. I’d written all my life -- journals, poetry, articles, essays, newspaper pieces -- but I think acting taught me how hard it would be to build a career in theatre. I knew I’d have to keep my head down and work very hard for long stretches -- without applause or immediate gratification.
GIVENS: I really relate to our Maggie/Esperanza character. She’s a 21st Century woman who leads a very predictable and safe life. She could choose to stay in that place forever and it would be okay. It’s a comfortable and happy existence. But in the wee midnight hours, something gnaws at her soul. She knows she’s missing something precious. She’s lost the connection with her authentic self. Her life lacks passion because she’s forgotten how to live adventurously, to dive into the creative wellspring that feeds her. Maggie is faced with a choice: to continue with life as it’s been, or to become Esperanza, the awakened woman, who dares to get in touch with her wild feminine side. Esperanza has the courage to follow her path, wherever that may lead. I realized that though I was happy and completely fulfilled being a wife and Mom, I still missed the passion that comes from creating and telling my story. For me, that passion comes to life in my personal writing and composing. The willingness to be vulnerable and put our creative soul out there is a dangerous thing. We have to be prepared to be judged, to be rejected or simply ignored. We finally come to the realization, however, that that doesn’t matter. We write because we must. There’s no other choice if we want to live passionate lives.
Director Mark Hinds huddles with playwrights for notes during Final Dress rehearsal
Q: Do you write standing or sitting?
GREGG: I tend to write lyrics sitting down; then try them out on my feet to see if they scan well to movement. As far as the script is concerned, I’m always seated until I smell something cooking downstairs in the kitchen!
GIVENS: Often my best writing ideas come when I’m taking a walk or driving my car. Then I go home, sit at my dining room table and write it down in a notebook. I like writing by hand in the beginning. As far as the music, I may come up with a melody while I’m washing dishes. But eventually, I go to the piano to compose. Often a melody will begin to emerge. It seems to have a mind of its own and I just follow it.
Q: Does improvisation figure into your writing process, alone and together?
GREGG: I often have imaginary conversations with new characters when I’m drawing a profile of each. I write full backstories for every character. I don’t start writing dialogue for any of these characters until I “hear” their voices in these inner conversations. I need to find the rhythm of the way each character speaks before I can begin to write them. Gretchen and I don’t really improvise together, but we usually are very open to each other’s suggestions. The back and forth we have together is very creative. We’re good problem-solvers together.
GIVENS: Being actors, both Linda and I often get carried away in the moment when writing a scene. We have fun improvising a situation or becoming characters, riffing on what they might say in that moment. That’s the most fun part of or our writing together.
Q: Do you start with songs and/or story? Or do you put characters first and all else second?
GREGG: The first thing we determine is the storyline. Gretchen and I spend quite a bit of time discussing storylines before we begin writing. Next, we create characters, followed by the lyrics. I send the lyrics I write to Gretchen, who works out the music. Generally, the music is the last part of the process.
GIVENS: It’s funny … when the idea of a story begins, immediately the characters start to appear. Each of them begins to take on a personality. They demand their fair share of time. The characters in “Esperanza!” have been haunting us to hurry up and get their story onstage! Songs are included when situations call for it. In a musical, it’s best to move the story along in song.
Q: Describe how you work out scenes within a plot structure.
GIVENS: Whenever we get together, ideas just start popping up. Our imaginations run wild, and we feed off of each other’s creativity. Linda still lived in San Francisco when we began mining the Esperanza story, sitting around my dining room table. We talked about plot, outlined scenes, came up with characters -- their individual personalities and what they might want. We plot out the storyline, scene by scene, building it as we go along. After we have agreed on the arc of a scene and decided what the characters will say, Linda writes a rough draft. After I get the draft from her, I revise, delete, add comments or lines. We go back and forth … It’s difficult now with her living in England. Most of our discussions are by email, or held on long distance calls. Neither one of us could write “Esperanza!” alone.
GREGG: Once I decide which characters should begin the story, I try to come up with the most arresting way to introduce them, usually something that’s a clue to what they’re looking for, or want to resolve. Often, the opening moments of the play give a hint or insight into a character’s fatal flaw or deepest desire, e.g., by placing Esperanza on the bow of the Portlandia ready to end her life, I wanted to show the urgency of her need to find passion in her life. Generally, I divide each scene into separate beats until the scene comes to a logical and natural conclusion. Each scene then becomes a larger beat until the act is completed.
"Old Heave Ho" number with sailors Bluster (Matthew Martin) and Fogg (Sal Russo)
Q: How does direct journalistic observation inform your stage writing?
GREGG: Observing speech, overhearing conversations, trying to listen for the way people really speak in a natural and uncontrived way is key to writing dialogue for the stage. Stage dialogue must have an easier, conversational flow than dialogue in a fictional narrative.
GIVENS: I love people-watching; I love reading about people’s lives. I learn a lot about creating colorful characters through direct observation. My life has been filled with a wide range of emotional experiences. It’s given me a deep wellspring to draw from for my stage writing.
Q: The “Esperanza!” text is quite complex -- do you use a big board or some other “writers-room” system to track characters/scenes/plot?
GREGG: We do not use a big board. I write a lengthy outline; then a complete storyline, then character backstories before beginning any dialogue. I usually set an objective that must be met for each scene, then each act.
GIVENS: We did make a big outline and put it on paper. This is not set in stone however. We’re constantly revising, shifting. It is very similar to making a quilt. We piece scenes together, but are always open to changing things for the good of the story.
Q: Although Gretchen handles the music, how do you work out those luscious lyrics?
GREGG: For me, the idea for a song usually arises from what needs to be accomplished in a particular scene. I often sketch out verses of the songs, then send them to Gretchen who’ll write the music. She then adds to or alters lyrics to make them comply with the musical structure of the song. The hardest part of lyric writing is coming up with ones that say something new and interesting, but also advance the plot. The hardest part of writing dialogue is not to repeat something you’ve already said in song.
GIVENS: That’s probably the hardest part of being coauthors. We each have very strong, very specific ideas about what should be said in a song. In the beginning, we hung on like crazy to our own verses. But over the years, we’ve learned to give and take. Often, one of us will come up with a title for a song, and that suggests the whole story. Each song is so very different. Perhaps one time Linda will write most of the lyrics, while in another song, I may write most of them. Sometime it is absolutely a 50-50 collaboration. But in every case, we’re open to each other’s suggestions of what’s best for each song.
Q: Do you like working alone as a writer?
GIVENS: I really do. I love my time alone, and I especially love it when I have time to write. With my busy life, it’s a luxury to find that time. I have a few individual writing projects of my own on the back burner.
GREGG: Yes, I think more clearly, feel free to explore any plot possibility, test the limits of a character when I’m working alone. When I’m working alone I can also slow down the creative process to the speed I need to find what I want to say; the other partner can’t be part of my own internal process. But working together is also a very creative process and has aspects that working alone doesn’t have. Gretchen and I can usually solve any problems with plot and storyline, when we work through it together, feeding off of each other’s ideas. I’m always confident that we can solve any problem that needs fixing … and we usually do.
Christine the Pirate (Lisa Luttinger) leads Portlandia sailors in "Mutiny" dance number
Q: How do you divide writing tasks?
GIVENS: The original storyline, plot and characters are first constructed by talking together. After that, Linda takes on the role of writing rough drafts of each scene. Meanwhile I’m composing melodies and arrangements that will embrace the lyrics and hopefully become captivating songs. Then the real joy begins for me -- I go to the recording studio, where I bring each song to life. I love finishing a song and playing it for Linda over the phone. It’s like we’ve birthed another baby!
GREGG: I write the drafts of the plays; I email them to Gretchen, then we go through them line-by-line later on the phone. She’ll voice her opinion or suggest changes.
Q: What do you consider your strengths as a writer? Your partner’s?
GREGG: I think my strengths are a sense of comic timing; a good ear for the rhythm of conversation, and an understanding of the dynamic of a scene. I’m also good at avoiding clichés. Gretchen’s strength is her keen ear for melody and musical expression, and her connection with the emotional underpinnings of each character.
GIVENS: Because of the wide range of experiences in my life, I think I bring a lot of understanding, depth and compassion to our characters and what they desire. I believe I write from the heart and people can discern an underlying sensitivity, sincerity and truthfulness. Linda is a brilliant, crafty writer. She’s extremely witty and well read, and always elevates our writing with ideas and facts that I never would have conceived. She’s so good at organizing and structuring all the puzzled pieces. With time, we’ve both become very good at editing our own material.
Q: What do you consider your limitations as a writer? Your partner’s?
GREGG: My limitations as a writer: not doing enough of it earlier in my life. It’s getting easier now … through hundreds and hundreds of sessions of trial and error. The only way to learn to write well is to keep writing, which I do every day in one form or another.
GIVENS: I probably write too poetically or sentimentally for some. I’ve not had time to read or travel as much as Linda, so I glean from her knowledge. In one of our plays, I refer to myself as “Rita Velveeta” (the everyday cheese), while she is “Quiche Lorraine” (the sophisticated cheese). I don’t know if it’s a lack of time or discipline, but I find it difficult to write at times. However, when I do commit to sit and work, I can lose myself for hours … and I feel so fulfilled afterwards. Linda’s limitation is also her strength. She’s so gifted with words that her creative well overflows. She may send me five pages of beautiful writing and I have to be hatchet man and cut it to three pages. Her lyric writing is so intelligent that sometimes I have to say, “We need to dumb this down a bit so people can feel it more on the emotional level.”
Q: How supportive is your family/home life, on a day-to-day writing basis?
GREGG: My husband is very supportive. The trick is keeping my cat off the computer keyboard. I also have a very quiet, comfortable room in which to write.
GIVENS: My husband also is very supportive. He knows I need to feed my creative fire and is always telling me to follow my dream. My kids are my biggest cheerleaders. My problem is that I have such limited time to create. I’m still teaching piano every day, while maintaining our home life. Frankly, I’m going to have to figure that out. I have some writing projects that are really calling out to me.
Q: What was the biggest obstacle overcome to get “Esperanza!” this far?
GREGG: Persevering through times when no one would look at the show. Also recovering from honest criticism that was intended to be instructive, but was often what we didn’t want to hear.
GIVENS: Actually, writing and having four plays going at the same time has been a little like having four racehorses running on a track. At one point or another, one of them would lead. Then, after awhile, that horse would falter and another would take the lead. We’d work on one play until we ran out of steam or ran into a brick wall, and then we’d focus on another. I always believed that “Esperanza!” could be the first one to cross the finish line because I felt it would be such an entertaining show. After writing the play, our biggest obstacle was to find out how to get it produced, since neither of us had any money. We tried for years to find a backer. We began shopping the play around locally about four years ago. However, we found out that without capital, it’s almost impossible to get theaters interested. After constant rejection, it felt like we were never going to succeed. It was sad to think that the characters we created in “Esperanza!” would never see the light of a stage. The characters were very disappointed in us, and kept urging us on!
Q: “Esperanza” means hope. How did each of you maintain “hope” during those eleven years?
GREGG: I maintained hope by realizing that “hopelessness” was not a viable option. As long as we maintain hope, there’s always a chance that we’ll succeed. Hopelessness is a dead end.
GIVENS: We leaned on each other a lot. When one of us dove off the ledge into despair, the other would throw out a lifeline. We’re lucky Linda and I are such great friends. So many of our despairing phone calls segued into just talking about life in general. We’d talk about family, experiences we were going through, politics, a movie, a recipe ... Before we knew it, we’d be laughing and carrying on. One of us would then say, “Well, I guess we could handle that scene differently ... or we could maybe try this instead of that.” We were buoyed up and ready to begin another round of writing.
Playwrights Linda Gregg and Gretchen Givens on set of their first musical
Q: When writing four plays at once … do you ever experience writers block?
GIVENS: Not really writers block … but it’s funny sometimes we’ll actually get a character’s line or a song mixed up. We’ll say, “Now which play was that song in?” I think we’d get writers block more often if we forced ourselves to keep writing a particular scene or play. But since we have four going, we can always take a break and jump into another project. That really helped keep us going, though it may have contributed to why it took us so long to finish one. We’ve had many revisions of each play also. “Esperanza!” underwent many revisions and had several different titles -- including “Carried Away” and “Heaving Bosoms, Throbbing Manhood” (both of which are major tunes in “Esperanza!”).
GREGG: I haven’t experienced serious writers block in quite a few years. To me, writers block now usually means that I’ve not yet found what I want to say.
Q: What do you envision for the future of “Esperanza!”?
GREGG: We’re hoping for interest from a regional or off Broadway company, or perhaps an English production company.
GIVENS: Well, of course we envision it up in bright lights on Broadway! Yea! If you’re going to dream, why not dream big? However, I’d be elated if the play would simply go on and be produced at another theater. This is our child and it’s taken blood, sweat, and tears to birth it. I’d love to see “Esperanza!” continue to have a life of her own.
Q: What would it take to get West End to notice this play? Or Broadway?
GREGG: Finding a way to penetrate Andrew Lloyd Webber’s production group -- he owns and operates 13 theatres in London’s West End -- which receives new musicals that can be workshopped or fully produced.
GIVENS: We’re going to have to put together a promotional packet: performance DVD, music CD, script and score, critics reviews, audience reactions, links to the web. We’re going to have to advertise and promote, and make calls to theaters. It may be wise for us to hire an agent.
Q: Where do West End and Broadway musicals come from, anyway? What’s the typical gestation and birth on the boards of a typical musical, if there is such a thing?
GIVENS: Fascinating question… I don’t know how to answer it.
GREGG: In the last 15-20 years, it seems that most of the musical ideas for both Broadway and West End shows are either revivals (e.g., “Gypsy,” “42nd Street,”) or musicals coming from other material (e.g., “Sunset Boulevard, “The Woman in White”). Since it costs so much money to put on a Broadway or West End show, there are fewer backers willing to finance untested writers. I don’t know what the typical gestation period for a musical might be, but I’d guess that the typical period would be about five to seven years. We’ve been at this for almost twice that long.
Pirates Eleanor (Linda Sciacqua) and Lucy (Jené Bombardier) on deck of Portlandia
Q: Have you considered approaching a cruise line about actually performing “Esperanza!” at sea? Or do you have some other unorthodox strategy to get the play produced elsewhere?
GREGG: We’ve never discussed approaching a cruise line, but that sounds like a pretty good idea.
GIVENS: That’s an interesting concept … We need to be open to all ideas. I think audiences are captivated by these characters. The characters challenge us to “Never give up. Find your passion and go for it.” I believe this is a theme everyone can relate to.
Q: Any productive writer has to balance creative and critical sides of her mind and that’s hard enough for one writer. How do two writers crack that tough nut?
GREGG: By keeping the critical side away from the creative side as long as possible when working with either yourself or your partner.
GIVENS: Yes, Linda and I are always analyzing our creative efforts. We write something and fall in love with it, and then our critical mind starts tearing it down. Word by word, we start questioning and then deleting and then rewriting. Before we know it, what we’d first loved is now unrecognizable and has lost its soul. I do this to my own writing for sure. Then, we look at each other’s efforts and begin critiquing and criticizing … seeing how we can add our own touch to make it better. But often, we come full circle to realize that the first effort was the most original, and worth returning to. You have to listen to -- and balance -- the creative and critical sides of the mind to end up with the best creation possible.
Q: Aside from writing, music and theater … what are your “hobbies”?
GREGG: I paint, make quilts, experiment with winemaking.
GIVENS: I love photography ... taking pictures of animal, birds and nature. I’m currently producing a CD of piano and instrumental music inspired by different bird calls … And I love spending time with my family, going to baseball and basketball games.
Muse (Anne Baker) and Maggie (Rhonda Joy Taylor)
Q: Do you have any advice for other writers/players of any age regarding getting a dream project produced?
GREGG: Read copiously about how others have done it. If anyone tells you to give up, don’t listen to them. If you think of a new way to reach an important connection, don’t be afraid to try it. Stick with any idea you believe in.
GIVENS: Just keep going forward, step by step, refusing to give up, no matter how scuffed up you get. Steal time whenever you can find it, save pennies to pay for supplies, indulge in a tub of ice cream when you are down in the dumps. Also, support other people in bringing their dreams to life. Their success is contagious and inspires us all to persevere.
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This interview originally appeared in The Martinez News Gazette on May 29, 2016.
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